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Welfare! Does It Work?


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#1 PeterJMelb

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 03:42 PM


Japan (as an example) does not have a welfare system.

Work for it or do without they say.

These are possibly the 5 best sentences
you'll ever read and all applicable to this experiment:

1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.

2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.

3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.

4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!

5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half
is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work
because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.
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#2 Aloysius

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Posted 13 July 2017 - 10:37 AM

Welfare is good - it means taking care of those less fortunate than you. Welfare systems on the other hand leave a bit to be improved.

 

Unfortunately all systems can be rorted and wefare is no exception - that's not the fault of Welfare - it's a failing of systems.

 

Equally unfortunate is the propensity for some to want to bludge on others so that their grasping tiny minds can continue to laze away their lives.

 

 

That said there is something unDarwinian about allowing failing species to survive and propagate.


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#3 PZ.

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 02:38 PM

Japan (as an example) does not have a welfare system.

Work for it or do without they say.


That's news to me because last time I checked the welfare bill in Japan is 1/5th of Govt expense.

https://en.wikipedia...#Pension_system

Australia is probably more generous but it doesn't adhere to any of those 5 sentences. And that's probably because those lines have been circulating the globe for more than 30 years and have little to do with Australian history and even less to do with our future. Our compulsory superannuation scheme is one example.

We aren't finished yet :)


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#4 Aloysius

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 09:16 AM

Aaaaaaah that's one of those "the science is never in type 

 

That's news to me because last time I checked the welfare bill in Japan is 1/5th of Govt expense.

https://en.wikipedia...#Pension_system

Australia is probably more generous but it doesn't adhere to any of those 5 sentences. And that's probably because those lines have been circulating the globe for more than 30 years and have little to do with Australian history and even less to do with our future. Our compulsory superannuation scheme is one example.

We aren't finished yet :)

 

 

Agreed!!

 

It's much the same as the "science is never in" thought, they have to be true because life = change - hopefully change for the better. :notworthy:


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#5 PeterJMelb

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 03:16 PM

Ah all 5 points are correct.

I remember reading a long time ago that if the wealthy were all stripped of their wealth and the money then available, distributed evenly throughout the community, it would take less than 10 years for the ex wealthy to be wealthy again.
Which means the poor ...

There has always been wealthy and poor, there is no other way.
If by some miracle every one was equal in wealth, no one would sweep the streets.

That's life.
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#6 PZ.

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 03:44 PM

Yes Peter, but...

 

Welfare and equality of wealth are two very different things :)

 

That's why welfare works - because those 5 points haven't eventuated here.


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#7 Aloysius

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 01:12 PM

Always need welfare, just need a better system that stops rorting and bludging on ordinary taxpayers.

 

For intance those who refuse to save for a rainy day and spend what they have on frivolity - gambling, drug use, having a good time now.


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#8 PeterJMelb

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 03:10 PM

Walfare is good? Depends as Aloy... explains.
The 5 points are truisms whether used/employed or not.
Just as true as the sun will probably rise tomorrow.
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#9 Aloysius

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 08:50 AM

The five points are not in contention.


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#10 PeterJMelb

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 11:04 AM

Hi Aloy...
The 5 points were the basis of the original post.
Has the post been hijacked?
If so what is now "the contention"?
Please note I am a huge fan of hijacking posts. It is a mission of mine, so hijack away!
Aloy... are you the hijacker?
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#11 PZ.

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 10:30 PM

The five points are not in contention.

 

I agree. They're not part of our way of life - especially the fifth point.


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#12 PeterJMelb

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Posted 25 July 2017 - 08:54 AM

Alas the 5th point is alive and well!
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#13 PZ.

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Posted 25 July 2017 - 09:04 AM

Hyperbole is also alive and well :)


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#14 mello yello

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 06:29 AM

Japan (as an example) does not have a welfare system.

Work for it or do without they say.

These are possibly the 5 best sentences
you'll ever read and all applicable to this experiment:

1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.

2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.

3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.

4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!

5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half
is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work
because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.

 

 

the full text :

 

 

Anyone else seen this stupid post going around facebook
An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never fai...led a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Obama's socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.
The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama's plan". All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A.... (substituting grades for dollars - something closer to home and more readily understood by all).
After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little..
The second test average was a D! No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F. As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else. To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed. It could not be any simpler than that.
Remember, there IS a test coming up. The 2012 elections.

These are possibly the 5 best sentences you'll ever read and all applicable to this experiment:
1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.
2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!
5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.


This is likely the dumbest and most uninformed thing Ive read. But It takes just a click to 'share it' and a lot of people I know have this up on their wall. This this serves to distort both the economic realities of our situation and the policies of the Obama administration. Crap like this reinforces everything the fox news idiots state.

 

 

Lincoln sauce

 

https://www.democrat....com/1002123546
 


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#15 mello yello

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 06:31 AM

how do American politics and their resistance to anything that even vaguely resembles fairness and equality as socialism relevant to Australian welfare ?

 

so you want the welfare money?, the money spent on welfare and human suffering be diverted to something that you would benefit from,  is that what youre trying to say Peter?


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#16 PeterJMelb

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 06:11 PM

Hi Mello.
Er I did not say anything, I just put up a quote for your enlightenment.
Make of it whatever.
Just where is "the fox news idiot state"?
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#17 Aloysius

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 07:56 AM

Aaah but the Economics Professor understands human behaviour and what they will do without appropriate stimulus.

 

Inappropriate stimulus cannot acheive worthy results.

 

Contrast growing an economy and jobs with redividing a shrinking pie!


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#18 mello yello

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 11:12 AM

so youre saying economic reality drives nonsense into some folks


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#19 mello yello

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 11:13 AM

Hi Mello.
Er I did not say anything, I just put up a quote for your enlightenment.
Make of it whatever.
Just where is "the fox news idiot state"?

 

neither did i, i just provided the full context


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#20 PeterJMelb

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 03:18 PM

Hey Mello ...
I never ask d you ...
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