Free Speech

[petersj]

I tire of the constant cal for freedom of speech. Using it s a platform to vilify others such as minorities or indeed anyone is unethical and often counter productive.  I wish I could say I was never guilty but alas I have been.

The world is too preoccupied with individuality and individual freedom rather than equality.

I read some forums and listen to friends talk with bitter hatred of Muslims and keep thinking how would I feel if I were on the other side receiving this rhetoric. 

 As a gay man I am no fan of Islam nor any man made religion. I reluctantly accept one should be free to follow a faith and providing society has strict guide lines of separation of church and state I can live with that. Even though I detest the region it not going any where. Muslims are here and they are here to stay.

I see prejudice in the young being passed on by parents. These parents should be teaching tolerance and acceptance not infecting their hate onto a new generation. 

[petersj]

One easily recalls the way Prime Minister Gillard was treated. Personally not my favourite Prime Minister but the ditch the witch rhetoric as shameful.

[Aloysius]

Do you believe that all gay people are as tolerant as yourself GG?


If you get my point!

[petersj]

I wish I could say yes but we none of us are devoid of flaws That includes me. 

The Muslim issue is oneI struggle with. I want to be tolerant yet at times I I feel I am tolerating the intolerant. Its tricky isn't it?

[Aloysius]

This topic becomes more interesting to me

 

Freedom of speech appears to be only applicable to folks we agree with!

 

Two examples from yesterday - Sonia Kruger - a media creation voices her personal fears related to Muslim immigration - she is howled down.

 

Pauline Hanson - an elected politician is howled down by an aboriginal activist.

 

I don't support either person or policy but you get the point - you either support freedom of speech for all or not at all - and that makes it a bit difficult - particularly for those with restricted outlooks.

[petersj]

I think she has the right to express her view but there needs to be balance. I feel we need to tread very cautiously as many people including Muslims are feeling afraid.

The trouble with Hansen is the whole thing is beyond her. I find her incoherent.

But this might surprise you I do think with caution that there should be free speech but not hate speech.

I am as concerned about some aspects of Islam as most.

As a gay man most would want me dead.

Dont worry guys I am struggling with this issue.

[Aloysius]

So GG who determines what balance is?

 

We don't need to discuss the merits of folks - do they have the right to free speech, or not?

 

This is a question that goes to behaviour of some political interviewers - rather than give a platform and ask clarifying questions, so that the viewer can make up their own mind, we have  self appointed arbiters of political correctness who think nothing of interrupting the interviewee to proclaim their own (unsolicited) views.

 

By contrast you have very open and unjudgemental  interviewers - excellent examples Jenny Brockie on SBS or Sarah Ferguson on ABC.

Contrast with bombastic superior (in their own minds at least) interviewers Tony Jones or Virginia Trioli, they make no bones about displaying their personal views.

 

The viewer is the loser in this!

[Aloysius]

"Told not to say anything"

 

http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/tv/...9b5ebc2ba7

 

the way i see that is Sonia Kruger put Australia ahead of her personal comfort, TEN are putting their personal comfort ahead of Australia

 

 

And even if I disagree with Ms Kruger - she has the right and others must defend that even if they disagree with her.

 

 

I think the Peta Credlin epithet of "bed wetters" is an enormously relevant term to describe those who have no real view of their own, merely a slavish devotion to political correctness.

 

These folks are so nice they have no real beliefs of their own in case it may offend their fellow bedwetters.

 

As Mello says - far more comfortable for Ms Kruger to say nothing and avoid the bedwetters approbrium - instead she stands for her belief - we know where she stands - silence cannot help in that.

 

Comfort is selfish, courage is rarely comfortable.

 

Thank goodness for folks with courage!

[petersj]

do they have the right to free speech, or not?

On the other hand Aloy I hardly pick up a paper or look at the internet without hearing what or reading what Hansen has to say. 

Just look at Sky News or Fox you certaily get to hear plenty of what are referred to as politicly incorrect editorials. Peta Credin , Alan jones and all of the right seem to have lots to say and are given lots of opportunities to say it.

I am simply questioning the belief that free speech has been abrogated. I hear it constantly.

Kruger and Hansen in my opinion do not really show much courage. What they are saying in my opinion is popularist. There are plenty of people applauding them. It takes no courage to go after a minority. Kicking the under dog is not courage.

Muslims make up at the most 3% of the population. So they remain a minority.

Still they are targetted by the right whoclaim they are not free to speak.

But yes they can say it and they do.

Still do they have the right to say it?

In a perfect world of tolerance I think they would not need to say it.

Thats not the world we live in. 

People like Hansen are afraid but so are her targets.

Yes of course they can say it and they are. They are shouting it as loudly as they wish.

With free speech comes a responsibilty to present the other side. Now on some shows and by some commentaters like Bolt, Jones Mitchell and others the caller who disagrees is lampooned. It works both ways.

[petersj]

The term political correctness was actually coined by conservative extreme right wing journalists' against the liberalism of who they called the loony left. They also protested against the calls for equality of Ameican indiginous people, hispanics, women and gays.

[Aloysius]

So is popularist the same as conservative?

 

I doubt it!

 

Bill Shorten runs a scare campaign about medicare (unfounded) that is populist - is Bill a conservative?

[petersj]

I am not quite sure Aloy if popularist is the same as conservative. Conjecture most interesting never the less.

Free speech is a flawed concept. Now dont get me wrong in many ways we should be free BUT we must take responsibilty.

Would you seriously allow David Irvin and holocaust deniers to come here. I am proud to say YOUR PARTY banned him and I applaud it.

For the record I felt a bit sorry for Kruger.

[petersj]

I think it was far from being an apology.

I did not agree with her but thats OK.  She said it loud and clear...so where is there NO free speech?

[Aloysius]

Basically she was forced to retract. Why?


I agree with her.


The righteous cannot see the elephant in the room.

We are at war. The hard line Islamists hate us with a passion, they are not going to come to afternoon tea and cake.

Why allow more of the enemy in until the war is won, then vet anyone wanting to come here.

If that means stopping all Muslim immigration so be it.

There are Imans here that say outrageous things, do they retract? No. Are they hounded by the SELF righteous? No.


Will I apologise? NO.

Will I retract? NO.

Am I sorry if I hurt any feelings? NO.

 

 

Fixed.

[Aloysius]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-21/ge...ve/7647340

 


Barnaby Joyce rejects Pauline Hanson's call for ban on Muslims, says every religion has 'ratbags'
 

Hear Hear Barnaby!!

[Aloysius]

To the best of my knowledge there have been terrorists from all faiths, and non faiths.

 

One mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter.

 

One points to The IRA in Ireland, the Orangemen there too.

Timothy McVeigh in the US

The Haganah in Israel

Pol Pot and Co in Cambodia

All the many and varied terrorists in South America, Philipines, Europe (remember Baader Meinhof?) Remember the Red Army Faction?

 

What you might consider is that almost all of these folks are more interested in power and particularly political power than any faith that they say they hold dear.

 

 

Etc etc etc and I haven't got to the many muslim terrorist groups yet. Clearly there are many who are able to twist and corrupt that faith to a position where any despicable act is acceptable,

 

Guess what? The same accusation can be levelled at "Christians" I speak as a Christian!

 

Islam definitely has muslim terrorists what kind would you expect? Buddhists?

[Aloysius]

Who is apologising?

 

Who sticks to facts?

 

Anyone who wants to forget the past is doomed to repeat it

 

My point, which you choose to ignore, was to support Barnaby Joyces comment.

 

His comment is unarguable.

 

To imagine that  99% of all ratbags are muslim is laughable.

 

To imagine that 1% of ratbags are non muslim is also laughable

 

Presumably you are using exaggeration for effect

 

You could also spot the elephant in the room and advise that some 90% of muslim terrorist victims are other muslims.

 

So what do we say then, "ban all the muslims who are being victimised by other muslims, after all they are all the same"?

 

Hello? 

 

Is Bogan actually a Melbourne word?

[petersj]

Aloy you are the mot unpredicatable poster on this site. WEll for this poster any way. My visits these days are pretty are but nice to check in.

Thats not an insult by the way.

I applaud what Joyce said. Now thats a first lol.

[Aloysius]

Nah Pete - someone told me yesterday that bogan was a melbourne word with similar meaning to the Sydney "westie"

 

And just to help you and give GG a break:

 

<p style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;"><a class="bbc_url" href="http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-21/george-christensen-says-target-muslim-immigration-ban-good-move/7647340" title="External link">http://www.abc.net.a...od-move/7647340</a>

<p style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;"> 

Barnaby Joyce rejects Pauline Hanson's call for ban on Muslims, says every religion has 'ratbags'

[Aloysius]

Pete you have pretty warped view of history.


To imagine that one group of people is intrinsically evil does not bear scrutiny.


One example will suffice:


The nation that gave the world:

Mozart

Beethoven

Schiller

Also gave us Adolph Hitler,genocide of homosexuals, jews, the mentally sick, political enemies etcetc


Are all Germans the same?